Monday, June 08, 2009

Some good stuff on Pyromaniacs

I occasionally like to drop by Pyromaniacs. While I dislike the Calvinism and Lordship Salvation over there, they often write some really great posts, especially on the subject of Charismatic nonsense.

Recently we had a great post from Phil Johnson on the lack of modesty in evangelical circles these days and a book review by Dan Phillips on the subject of guidance. It contains a wholehearted endorsement of the position of Garry Friessen's Decision-making and the Will of God.

8 comments:

Jonathan Hunt said...

I have to get my head round the Friessen idea.

A little question for you: If one does not embrace 'free grace theology', is the alternative ALWAYS Lordship salvation?

JH

Celestial Fundie said...

Personally, I think the term 'Lordship Salvation' is kind of broad.

Basically it covers any Christian who believes that continuing discipleship is essential to final salvation.

Colin Maxwell said...

Hi Matthew:

What (apart from the time line) is the difference between "salvation" and "final salvation" especially seeing that "salvation" is "eternal salvation" (if you catch my drift)?

Would you recognise that there is a difference between saying that discipleship is the "fruit" of salvation than saying that discipleship is a "cause" or "contributing factor" to salvation?

If Christ does not save us "from our sins" - can we rightly number ourselves among "His people?" (Matthew 1:21)

Must keep it short if reply from my part is needed - we're moving house here and I must smell of cardboard boxes and packaging tape at this stage.

Regards,

P/s Matthew - I think that you would enjoy Twitter. Short texts
(140 characters) Many Tory MP's (and others)are on it.

Celestial Fundie said...

Colin,
"What (apart from the time line) is the difference between "salvation" and "final salvation" especially seeing that "salvation" is "eternal salvation" (if you catch my drift)?"

I think I am using clumsy terminology.

I believe that we need to be saved from the termporal consequences of sin and I also believe we need to be saved to enjoy and reign over the millennial kingdom (which may be forfeited).

These things can be distinguished from the gift of eternal life and justification.

"Would you recognise that there is a difference between saying that discipleship is the "fruit" of salvation than saying that discipleship is a "cause" or "contributing factor" to salvation?"

In theory, yes, and I would even go so far as to suggest that sometimes Free Gracers can pretend there is no difference.

In practical terms, there ought not to be a difference between the two. That Calvinists usually have assurance of their final salvation despite beliving that they must show fruit if they are regenerate suggests that they are the real antinomians.

"If Christ does not save us "from our sins" - can we rightly number ourselves among "His people?" (Matthew 1:21)"

I think that verse refers primarily to the Jews. Not all of them are saved are they?

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

Colin Maxwell said...

Hi Matthew:

You write: In practical terms, there ought not to be a difference between the two. That Calvinists usually have assurance of their final salvation despite beliving that they must show fruit if they are regenerate suggests that they are the real antinomians.

I don't think (understatement) that Calvinists believe that the fruit needs to be perfect- but it does need to be there. The presence of fruit is not the be all and end all of assurance.

Re: "His people" - I interpet this in light of Galatians 3:28 i.e. making it all embracing rather than limited to the Jew.

Regards,

Celestial Fundie said...

Does the fruit include exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees?

Colin Maxwell said...

Matthew: It would not be hard to surpass the righteousness of the Scribes & Pharisees which consisted largely in outward duties without the heart - as seen in the condemnation of Mark 7.

However, we ought to be careful to say that justification is not in the least degree according to any works of ours, whether before or after faith, but by grace through faith alone without the deeds of the law.

Works only demonstrate the presence of justifying faith, for we are saved unto good works as Ephesians 2:8-10 amply proves.

Regards,

Celestial Fundie said...

I would not in general accuse Calvinists of teaching that justification is conditional upon works (though MacArthur comes close in his redefinition of faith).

But presumably, whatever exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees is, it must be carried out or one is not really saved?